saginaw m1 carbine markings

Ordnance also inspected I've got one with (JJ) in a circle , on the flipper, on a Winchester. Here is one for you. subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. General Motors Steering Gear Division. Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. block in the same time frame. Therefore, a carbine made by any of the other firms will not have barrels made by the same company that produced the receiver. That serial number was issued to Standard Products. Also, have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling. Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin-Pedersen in Grand Rapids. All matching even the trigger group. On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Receiver or barrel or? To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. The barrel markings are well defined. SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. The bore shows an M.E. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. Therefore, if any other carbine has this type of barrel band, it is not all original. It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. In all, more than 6.5 million M1 Carbines were produced between September 1941 and August 1945, making it one of the most prolific arms of World War II. It makes a difference. Marked INLAND MFG. Guns.com pledges to make gun buying easy, to support local gun stores, and to serve our The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. Everything Stamper G.S. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. Both were Divisions of General Motors but were located in different cities. on the right. Most WWII carbines had hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds. An Ordnance supplement A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. Yellow Birch heartwood tends to be a light reddish brown, with nearly white sapwood. My IP is in the first serial block--1776xxx. We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. Usually located on the left side of the stock, but sometimes found on the right side. Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. You certain the receiver is S'G'? If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. Visit our website for new treasures daily. No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed There is a difference. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. Bore Condition:The muzzle and grooves are light gray. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. Some stocks will also be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the right side as well. The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. All Rights Reserved. That's peDersen with a "D", by the way. CARBINE / CAL. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. What are you basing your question on? All Rights Reserved. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. Legacy Collectibles strives to provide quality investment-grade military collectibles to an appreciative public. for carbines having damaged or obliterated serial numbers. Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. Sent the OP some pictures of an all S'G' I had listed here last year, didn't get a single request for pictures from members, and asked two questions but had no reply. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. Serial Any completed Irwin-Pederson rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG after they took over the contract. The muzzle gauges 2.5. They were located in different cities. The stock seems to be varnished. These marks have been oiled. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. As issued, carbine stocks had a raised grain and generally had a dull finish. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. numbers (i.e. It is in about Good condition. receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. What does a 10,000 dollar insulator look like? Do you have anything on safeties? Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). Some stock Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. These marking(s) and their location(s) varied based on needs and/or intent. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. The M2 stocks were often used as replacement stocks for the M1's. The stock was also replaced and has no proof markings. Shortages were common A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. SG on left side of some receivers, not all. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. Carbines have been, and still are, The left side of the receiver (under the wood) is marked X and has a tooling hole at the rear. During the production of their type III stocks in 1945 Winchester changed generous return policy, and handle everything you dont have to go back to The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. Taming the SFAR: How Ruger's Small-Frame .308 Runs Suppressed. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. The barrel flat is marked with a flaming bomb. XA27, XA62, XD14). Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). Saginaw Gear made receivers with wide locking tangs. Made in the Winter of 1943. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. Barrel Date: September, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. S-C [stamped sideways] O-S [in curved type] SI SL [circled] Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. Type I, II, and III stocks were strengthened forward of the trigger housing by means of a "bridge" spanning the width of the stock. To get better and faster responses and opinions. were available. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. The receiver, bolt, and trigger group have been refinished. I've had this M1 Carbine for about 20-years. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. These receivers were purchased by Winchester. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. Birch. To get better and faster responses and opinions. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. The stock rates in about Very Good Plus overall condition. Thank you. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. and refurbished carbines and were not permitted to use rebuild marks. Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S. their historical value. Saginaw took over production in Grand Rapids and marked the facilities M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. Model:M1 Carbine. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. Saginaw Carbines made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. your community AND if they have it in stock, you can pick your gun up With World War 2 M1 sling. Wood being wood, it is subject to cracks. The rifling is sharp. Stocks made of Product Information & Specs. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). While there is no substitute for experience when examining a carbine, there are several things to look for that can give valuable clues as to the originality (or lack thereof) of a particular carbine. barrel includes a date, it may provide a general idea of when the barrel was attached to the receiver. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. due to a lack of original documentation. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. The M2 Carbine had a selective fire capability i.e. full auto. Neither the M1 Rifle or the M1 Carbine had a selective fire capability. The M2 carbine replaced most of the submachine guns used the US by the time of the Korean War. Heck I should take some photos later. We get the FFL from your store others make you find it, copy it, and fax it. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. I'm sure it's not all original. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). There is no bayonet lug. Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them. Are you sure it is a Saginaw? Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). Ser. This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector. The smooth push button safety is marked E-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 95 & 185). This rareIrwin-PedersenM1 Carbine is in Very Good Plus condition. on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been The bore is mint. However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. Location: Upwind of the Giant Plaster Lemon. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation The one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil. Simi Valley, CA 93065. two Ordnance rebuild P's. There has to be either a period or apostrophe after each letter of the SG on the receiver heel. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary The Carbine Collectors Club. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 90% of its metal finish as refinished. Stay in the know. Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. 3?7XXXX ? The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. There were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. Simi Valley, CA 93065. It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: The one and only finish approved for use on the wood of the Caliber .30 Carbine was raw linseed oil. 30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW SG / 3289121. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). I'm sure it's not all original. The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. It's the first I've seen. No one, so far, at CMP has ID'ed it yet. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. own to figure out what you want. Walnut, Birch, and Cherry stocks were placed in raw linseed oil for a period of time, and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. Free shipping for many products! Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. Is it SAGINAW S.G. or SAGINAW S'G'? A few stock and/or carbine restoration ): B [circled] (I've seen some cases of 100 that were marked Winchester, but packed with these "B" magazines-- could they be a subcontract from Bridgeport?) of 0.3. would be used for the U.S. Carbine Models M1 or M1A1, and some of the M2's, were made well after the receiver was completed as all of these models used the same receiver. I have never really studied the parts or did much research. The sling well is marked IR-IP which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 108 109). There is no bayonet lug. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. Get Guns.com offers and news!! These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. Saginaw M1 Carbine .30 Carbine Semi-Auto Rifle Blue Sky Import - C&R - 12500203. It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various If a parkerized bolt is observed, the piece is almost certainly not all original. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). Instead of buying a gun thats Doing so may alter The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. After the Irwin-Pedersen was canceled. It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. They didn't come any other way--period. If a stock has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood but is absent the cutout for the Rebuild marks are indicative of the carbine having been inspected by a stateside U.S. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) Lighter colored wood such as birch was often stained darker before being finished. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments They are a specialty that Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00 Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) Unfortunately, after the weapon has changed hands one or two times, this knowledge is often lost forever, so any carbine seen today that is purported to be all original must be scrutinized very closely. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. A total of over 6.1 million M1 carbines of various models were manufactured, making it the most produced small arm for the American military during World War II (compared with Irwin-Pederson (IP) secured a contract to produce M1 Carbines for the war effort in March of 1942. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. receiver. There are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Inland Mfg - Engineering & Presentation Gifts. Every week we put items for sale starting at $1 ! M1 Carbine Saginaw Type 1A barrel band complete. Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. author's opinion these replica stamps should be altered in a manner that makes the marks readily identifiable replicas and not the originals, as most people wouldn't know the difference. How long ago? Waste of time. It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. Markings: There is no visible import mark. Forgeries are a serious concern for collectors. another state. Data collected Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. Saginaw marked the Grand Rapids factory M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. No import markings. The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which is a Saginaw Gear mark (page 65). I have a Saginaw SG 3.22 million range. Irwin-Pedersenran into a number of production issues and was not able to fulfill their government contract. Underwood supplied barrels for Irwin-Pedersen (page 50). Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. Rangemasters are here to answer all your questions about our products or process. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. The magazine release is not an SG part. I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide Ths M1 Carbine has since been refinished. with Inlands war effort. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. 3 3/16" (approx.) However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 65). Make: Saginaw SG. to the assigned serial number blocks. Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. The front sight is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 56). The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. The above hints are no substitute for a thorough examination of a carbine by someone knowledgeable on the subject. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. The best way to ensure an item is yours is to purchase it directly off the website. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. DIV. If a Saginaw S'G' strip it down to see if it has any IP Irwin Peterson parts, could be a transitional carbine. After WWII Birch became much more common. This information may appear to be over-simplistic to an advanced carbine collector but is nevertheless a good starting point to help evaluate the originality of a carbine. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. It will add to your WWII collection. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. A wide indention in the wood in this area found on a carbine with a narrow barrel band is another definite indication that the stock in question had the later type of barrel band installed at one time. It's listed with Inland. Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. The Grand Rapids facility stopped carbine production on 01 Jan 1944 but continued to make receivers and trigger housings which were sent to the Saginaw Plant for assembly. The new serial number was hand stamped on top of the receiver behind the rear sight, in the vicinity of the prior serial number. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. 317XXXX. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. departments within Inland over the years of production. There is minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the receiver. the store. There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. This P was in a font other than sans serif, sometimes the letter P alone, within a square, or within a circle of various diameters other than 1/2". Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be The Underwood barrel is original. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions.
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